|
|
 |
The VIP Poker League
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
Let's make it work!
Ok, so we have to accept that the latest season of The VIP Poker League has not worked according to plan. Despite nearly 150 registrations to the league, only one of the tournaments has so far attracted enough runners to go ahead. This has proved to be very frustrating for those players trying to take part and, of course, to us.
Before I continue, I would like to make one thing very clear – and I fully accept the potential scepticism this comment may attract. The VIP Poker League is not currently a vehicle to make any profit for either The VIP Card Club or bwin. Quite the opposite, in fact. The purpose of the league is to create a fun and attractive league for poker players of all standards that would be enjoyable to take part in and offer some great prizes. Over time, the plan is to grow the league significantly in order to increase the value and the prizes even further . At that point, we would look to make it financially attractive for the organisers – but this is absolutely not the priority right now. I really do want to get this point home, ALL we want to achieve at the moment is a league that the players enjoy playing in and offers some decent added value.
However, there was a lot of added value to be added in this league and, to be fair to ourselves and bwin, we had to ensure that we had sufficient interest to justify the increase in added prizes. When the details of the new league were released, we did announce three stipulations regarding the league :-
1. We must have 250 registered players for the league to go ahead.
2. Each tournament must have at least 50 runners in order to take place.
3. If there was less than an average of 400 entries per week, bwin reserved the right to withdraw from the league after 5 weeks.
We did not reach the target of 250 players (in fact we did little better than half the target!) but we decided that, with that amount of registrations, it was quite likely that we would get at least 50 for the tournament. We therefore went ahead with the league in it’s existing format hoping /expecting that we could still provide some decent added value for the players that were taking part, and there was always the chance that more would take part as the league progressed.
We are now left in a situation where it is virtually certain that we will not be getting the required entries over the first 5 weeks for the league to continue. It is also fairly likely that at least some of the tournaments will continue to be cancelled due to lack of participation. Rather than just let the season fade into obscurity, we would like to do what we can to salvage something and at the very least do something for those players that have committed to taking part.
We have received some feedback regarding the league with various suggestions as to why the numbers involved may be less than expected.
1) Weather – the weather in the UK is starting to improve, and some people may not be as interested in playing online poker during nice weather
2) The World Cup is fast approaching and people may not be wanting to commit to playing regularly during this tournament
3) The structure is too complicated and confusing for people, thus putting them off
4) There is significant benefit in being part of a team in terms of the added value, and players who are unable to form a team feel disadvantaged and less likely to take part.
5) The location of the casino (not the casino itself) is either unattractive or unpractical for some players looking to take part.
So we want to look at some alternatives that could possible overcome some of the above objections. The options we have come up with so far are as follows :-
a) Postpone this season of the league till after the World Cup/Summer
We keep the structure and prizes exactly the same, and just start in (for example) September.
Pros
Gives us more time to market the league and attract more players
If people are not taking part because of the time of year, they may be more inclined to do so
Cons
We may lose some momentum, players lose interest and the league never recovers
Not particularly “fair” on those who are wishing (and willing) to take part NOW
b) Carry on as we are
We don’t change a thing, send out some reminders to those that have registered, and hope things improve and we get the numbers.
Pros
It would of course be nice to get things going as originally planned.
Cons
If we don’t get the numbers in each tournament, there will be no tournaments. Players will lose interest, and the league will possibly cease .
If we get the numbers in each tournament, but don’t meet bwin’s requirements for the season to go full distance, players could feel let down and this jeopardises future seasons.
c) Reduce both the required numbers of entries and the guarantee
For example, make it $250 guaranteed, with a minimum 25 runners.
Pros
Tournaments almost certain to go ahead.
Likely to still be some decent added value.
Cons
Strong possibility that we don’t meet bwin’s requirements for the season to go full distance.
d) Scrap both the required numbers of entries and the guarantee
No minimum numbers, but no guarantees
Pros
Tournaments certain to go ahead.
Less value given away in each tournament means potentially more value available for other prizes.
Cons
Potentially less value in each tournament for players.
Strong possibility that we don’t meet bwin’s requirements for the season to go full distance, meaning the overall value for players is reduced.
e) Remove the team aspect of the league
Players only take part as an individual. It is important to note that of the c140 registered players, there have been only 11 team submissions.
Pros
Players that have been put off as they can’t form a team and feel disadvantaged may be more likely to take part.
No team prizes being given out could provide a better chance of the league going full distance and resulting in a live final.
Cons
Those that have submitted a team could be alienated and withdraw from the league.
f) Overhaul the structure completely
Take into account the feedback received so far – and hopefully still to come – and adjust the structure based on the number of players that have so far looked to take part. Keep it as simple as possible, but ensure that whatever prizes we offer are definitely going to be available and there will definitely be a live final
Pros
League can definitely go ahead with fixed prizes and a guranteed final.
A simpler (hopefully!) structure may re-engage other players.
A “successful” season gives the opportunity to continue with the league and make further improvements/increased value for future seasons.
Cons
Wholesale changes may alienate players, and risk the future of the league.
As above if there is less overall added value.
I would really apprecaite some feedback/thoughts/suggestions on the above, and as soon as possible if we are to make any changes and rescue this season. A number of the emails I have received have suggested that the amount of added value is not the sole consideration. Players just want to take part in a regular league that is well run and the live final is the particular incentive. I accept that this is not the case for everyone, and would like to come up with some kind of option that pleases as many people as possible and gives the league the best chance of a future. If a smaller, simpler league with a few less prizes and a smaller live final is going to keep enough of you interested for us then I’m all for it. If we can keep the league going for this season, and see an improvement on numbers from the last two seasons, then the league has a future and we can continue to get bigger and better season on season.
Let me re-iterate one thing. This league is only any good to any of us if YOU, the players, like it. That really is my role here, to make sure YOU are happy with what we offer. If I can achieve that, and slowly (not too slowly, hopefully!) increase and improve the league over time then I’d be delighted.
I really do welcome your thoughts.
James
|
|
 |
 |
|
 |
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
League thoughts.....
Hi James
Thanks for the speedy update on this. I for one would like to add my comments based on passed and current experiences. Some of these are my comments alone, some of them have been shared in the chat whilst on BWIN itself.
Firslty I'll apologise for what is likely to be a long and unstructed post 
First we have to look at the old Brian Clough mentallity "If it isn't broken, don't fix it". To a point I agree with this, but it's also important to evolve a product in line with customer expectations in order to stay ahead of any competition. So a revamp in the old league was certainly worth a look. I might make a suggestion later (haven't planned this very well in my mind yet) that combines these two options.
The old leagues worked well and my ONLY incentive for taking part was the live final in Luton. The money I made from the weekly leagues comes in 3rd behind the cash I finally made from a final table place in the last league
Although I don't include myself in this group, a lot of people wouldn't be comfortable going to a casino and sitting down to a random multi table tourney. This way gives people the opportunity to do so in a very friendly and well organised way. The final events are certainly a lot of fun and it's just nice to play in a friendly freeroll rather than with 100 people taking things very seriously. Not that I didn't take it seriously of course, I'm just capable of having fun and being serious at the same time
So, what key factors are required to make the league attractive to regular and casual players alike...
Regular Players: Probably more interested in the financial possibiliites so therefore added value might be important to this player type. More likely to commit to longer leagues and make the time to play in most events.
Casual Players: Less likely to commit to a longer league set up. Can't make it every week and therefore drop out after 6-7 weeks when they think (wrongly) that they can no longer qualify. If i remember rightly there were a couple of players last season who were nowehere with a couple of weeks to go and ended up with very respectable placings. Lower buy-ins are more attractive as a very casual player just wants "a bit of fun"
This being said, I am a regular player and the idea of "money can't buy" prizes still sounds good to me. But like I said I also play for fun!
Ok, so I'm losing my mind now but i'll carry on regardless. I had a chat in the BWIN lobby last week with a couple of league regulars who all said that the GTD money wasn't really an incentive. I won't put anyone's name in here without permission from them but a couple both said "I just want to play poker" (I have an idea about this btw which I'll mention later for those still reading). I completely agree with this, which I'm sure you have worked out by now anyways. If we have 20 runners, so be it, less effort to win so less prize money, seems fair to me.
Right, now the bit you've all been waiting for......
Suggestion 1.
Continue with the current league (scrap teams if you want, I don't really mind either way). This would then stop a certain amount of collusion that would be unavoidable.
Take out the minimum entrants and GTD prise pool and just "get what you get".
Take out whatever added value prizes you must in order to make it commercially viable for VIPCC and BWIN.
Keep the new scoring system.
Keep the live final.
Suggestion 2.
As number 1 but with a smaller GTD, smaller minimum entrants and smaller added value prizes. Do whatever is needed to prevent BWIN withdrawing after 5 weeks.
Suggestion 3
Leave everything as it is but include the words "$500 GTD" in the tourney listing. This might actually be enough to entice more players who "stumble upon it" into the league. It's still early enough that this could do the trick. If it doesn't work next week then look at other options.
I think it's well worth noting that there are many players who support and enjoy the league and want it to be a success. The potential prizes are certainly worth having but not the be all and end all. The uncertainty of whether or not there will be a live final is a concern to me, I don't like the idea of BWIN withdrawing after 5 weeks so anything that can be done to prevent this should figure highly in the decsions (so we don't get to see Jose and his bunch of galacticos, so what)
Conclusion (my opinion)
Option 1:
suits me. I don't really care about how big the prizes are or how many final places are available or how many events will run in the final. The prizes on offer for the last leagues have been plenty considering it's a freeroll. If this sort of final can be run with commercial benefits to the organisers (or even small losses to start with based on Jame's post) then why not.
Option 2:
Don't think this will make sufficient difference. May as well be 1 or 3 IMO.
Option 3:
I reckon this is worth a try also. If it costs us 1 week to find out it's a dead horse then so be it.
Like I said at the outset, i didn't plan this post at all so sorry if it's all over the shop. Hopefully it gets my views across which I know are shared by several other league members. And also might entice some discussion on here from other players who would like the league to succeed and have different opinions. As James mentioned this league is for us, not for them (well, not yet anyways ) If we don't tell them what we want, they can't just magic up a league that suits everyone. So please get involved in fixing this or creating a new structure.
Right, I've spent far too long on this now and should go get some work done!!
Good luck at the tables.........
ShotFox
ps. I know I haven't mentioned my idea for "I just want to play poker". I'll probably email James about this seperately to see if it's a goer or not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The VIP Poker League
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The VIP Poker League
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by shotfox
lol, I told you it would be long and untructured :P
|
It was very useful!! I just didn't want everyone to feel obliged to put that much effort in!!!
Cheers,
James
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
vip league on bwin
Hi James and rest of league players. I am dissappointed that there is not enough to carry on the way it is at the moment but as with shotfox would be more so if there wasn't a live final we look forward to it so much even if we don't get far the playing at a live event is so much more fun. And you've always got that chance however small. About how to change the league is something else.
I think the current structure sounds more complicated than it acctualy is which i think has put some players off not all of the pub players have access to the net which means they cannot enter at all.
Other games on bwin have many more entrants with less gtee. So why aren't we is because they have to registar with the v i p club ? Or that most of them are not UK players.
Thanx James will give league more thought if i come up with anything will let you no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Ok, so we have to accept that the latest season of The VIP Poker League has not worked according to plan. Despite nearly 150 registrations to the league, only one of the tournaments has so far attracted enough runners to go ahead. This has proved to be very frustrating for those players trying to take part and, of course, to us.
Before I continue, I would like to make one thing very clear – and I fully accept the potential scepticism this comment may attract. The VIP Poker League is not currently a vehicle to make any profit for either The VIP Card Club or bwin. Quite the opposite, in fact. The purpose of the league is to create a fun and attractive league for poker players of all standards that would be enjoyable to take part in and offer some great prizes. Over time, the plan is to grow the league significantly in order to increase the value and the prizes even further . At that point, we would look to make it financially attractive for the organisers – but this is absolutely not the priority right now. I really do want to get this point home, ALL we want to achieve at the moment is a league that the players enjoy playing in and offers some decent added value.
However, there was a lot of added value to be added in this league and, to be fair to ourselves and bwin, we had to ensure that we had sufficient interest to justify the increase in added prizes. When the details of the new league were released, we did announce three stipulations regarding the league :-
1. We must have 250 registered players for the league to go ahead.
2. Each tournament must have at least 50 runners in order to take place.
3. If there was less than an average of 400 entries per week, bwin reserved the right to withdraw from the league after 5 weeks.
We did not reach the target of 250 players (in fact we did little better than half the target!) but we decided that, with that amount of registrations, it was quite likely that we would get at least 50 for the tournament. We therefore went ahead with the league in it’s existing format hoping /expecting that we could still provide some decent added value for the players that were taking part, and there was always the chance that more would take part as the league progressed.
We are now left in a situation where it is virtually certain that we will not be getting the required entries over the first 5 weeks for the league to continue. It is also fairly likely that at least some of the tournaments will continue to be cancelled due to lack of participation. Rather than just let the season fade into obscurity, we would like to do what we can to salvage something and at the very least do something for those players that have committed to taking part.
We have received some feedback regarding the league with various suggestions as to why the numbers involved may be less than expected.
1) Weather – the weather in the UK is starting to improve, and some people may not be as interested in playing online poker during nice weather
2) The World Cup is fast approaching and people may not be wanting to commit to playing regularly during this tournament
3) The structure is too complicated and confusing for people, thus putting them off
4) There is significant benefit in being part of a team in terms of the added value, and players who are unable to form a team feel disadvantaged and less likely to take part.
5) The location of the casino (not the casino itself) is either unattractive or unpractical for some players looking to take part.
So we want to look at some alternatives that could possible overcome some of the above objections. The options we have come up with so far are as follows :-
a) Postpone this season of the league till after the World Cup/Summer
We keep the structure and prizes exactly the same, and just start in (for example) September.
Pros
Gives us more time to market the league and attract more players
If people are not taking part because of the time of year, they may be more inclined to do so
Cons
We may lose some momentum, players lose interest and the league never recovers
Not particularly “fair” on those who are wishing (and willing) to take part NOW
b) Carry on as we are
We don’t change a thing, send out some reminders to those that have registered, and hope things improve and we get the numbers.
Pros
It would of course be nice to get things going as originally planned.
Cons
If we don’t get the numbers in each tournament, there will be no tournaments. Players will lose interest, and the league will possibly cease .
If we get the numbers in each tournament, but don’t meet bwin’s requirements for the season to go full distance, players could feel let down and this jeopardises future seasons.
c) Reduce both the required numbers of entries and the guarantee
For example, make it $250 guaranteed, with a minimum 25 runners.
Pros
Tournaments almost certain to go ahead.
Likely to still be some decent added value.
Cons
Strong possibility that we don’t meet bwin’s requirements for the season to go full distance.
d) Scrap both the required numbers of entries and the guarantee
No minimum numbers, but no guarantees
Pros
Tournaments certain to go ahead.
Less value given away in each tournament means potentially more value available for other prizes.
Cons
Potentially less value in each tournament for players.
Strong possibility that we don’t meet bwin’s requirements for the season to go full distance, meaning the overall value for players is reduced.
e) Remove the team aspect of the league
Players only take part as an individual. It is important to note that of the c140 registered players, there have been only 11 team submissions.
Pros
Players that have been put off as they can’t form a team and feel disadvantaged may be more likely to take part.
No team prizes being given out could provide a better chance of the league going full distance and resulting in a live final.
Cons
Those that have submitted a team could be alienated and withdraw from the league.
f) Overhaul the structure completely
Take into account the feedback received so far – and hopefully still to come – and adjust the structure based on the number of players that have so far looked to take part. Keep it as simple as possible, but ensure that whatever prizes we offer are definitely going to be available and there will definitely be a live final
Pros
League can definitely go ahead with fixed prizes and a guranteed final.
A simpler (hopefully!) structure may re-engage other players.
A “successful” season gives the opportunity to continue with the league and make further improvements/increased value for future seasons.
Cons
Wholesale changes may alienate players, and risk the future of the league.
As above if there is less overall added value.
I would really apprecaite some feedback/thoughts/suggestions on the above, and as soon as possible if we are to make any changes and rescue this season. A number of the emails I have received have suggested that the amount of added value is not the sole consideration. Players just want to take part in a regular league that is well run and the live final is the particular incentive. I accept that this is not the case for everyone, and would like to come up with some kind of option that pleases as many people as possible and gives the league the best chance of a future. If a smaller, simpler league with a few less prizes and a smaller live final is going to keep enough of you interested for us then I’m all for it. If we can keep the league going for this season, and see an improvement on numbers from the last two seasons, then the league has a future and we can continue to get bigger and better season on season.
Let me re-iterate one thing. This league is only any good to any of us if YOU, the players, like it. That really is my role here, to make sure YOU are happy with what we offer. If I can achieve that, and slowly (not too slowly, hopefully!) increase and improve the league over time then I’d be delighted.
I really do welcome your thoughts.
James
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My pennies worth.
Although I am new to this league and to this forum, I was planning on looking forward to playing in this league.
I pretty knew from the 1st game it was not going to get the 50 players min every game to play. But I liked the idea hence why I reg'd.
I read the long reply from ermmmm cant remember his name, and I must agree with the 1st suggestion he made.
I am not new to poker and know my fair share of knowledge with over 10 yrs playing under my belt.
I have to agree with scrapping the team idea, It could / will cause concern for collusion with other players like me. Although it could never be proved if collusion was involved, I personally feel you are always going to have the element that someone could be cheating.
Again scrap the GTD, and play with the numbers that reg to make sure the players who have made the effort to sign up and reg for the game actually get a game.
If this involves Bwin pulling out, so be it. But I think the players should come 1st regardless. If it means the prizes are not going to be so Glossy again so be it. I would rather play a game of poker knowning the league will not collaspe because of the lack of numbers.
If I can offer anything to help, please just hollow.
For me personally, the only reason I would not play all the time is because I play in that many leagues, that I can not keep up. But I like the idea of the 2 best scores counting per week. It gives the chance of being donked out by a donk and ruining your chance of say a FT.
FFS I just typed in a load of texted and pressed entered and now its all gone......
Fantastic........
But I was basically going to say , defo keep the scoring, defo keep the 2 best results per week. But I would bin the GTD prize fund, and play with the cash on the table.
If players are uncomfy playing a live final in a casino this again could be a reason for the low numbers. It doesnt bother me if its a live final or an online final, maybe an online final should be the way to go, till you get the numbers up and spread the word a bit further a field.
Like mentioned I pee'd off now because my last 30 mins of typing have gone. So I am going to close now, and If any other points come across I will reply in due course.
Last edited by plaza player; 7th-June-2010 at 06:06 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ok, so we had a brief chat in the BWIN lobby today as the latest league match disappeared into the ether. When I say "we" I mean about 5 of the league regs who really enjoy this event and want it to suceed. Several describe my first post as "Ramblings" (which i can't deny) so i'll try to keep to the points
The general consenus is that we really enjoy the chance of the live final. It's a bit of fun down in the casino where there;s a chance of decent money (especially if i can get on a cash table vs Ed  )
It was also widely regarded that none of us really give a flying you know what about going to watch Real Madrid. Yes it would be nice and all, but not at the expense of a very enjoyable league.
No-one cares about the GTD $500 enough that the league should suffer. I would expect by now that you will get the point that all we actaully want, which we know is what you genuinely care about, is a league with a live final.
I am now sure in my opinion that we should scrap the GTD, scrap the minimum players, scrap the teams. Scrap BWIN???? maybe, they don;t appear to have been over the top with their advertising help. KEEP the new scoring system. I think it rewards regular and consistent players which is what a league should do IMO.
Now, what I don't know is how much it's costing VIPCC to have a GTD amount at the live final and how much comes from sponsors etc. But the chance to play a live freeroll for $10,000 is what seems to be driving every player I've spoken to to turn up (so to speak) week after week.
All players I'm sure will accept that VIPCC is a commercial entity and as such should be seeking to make from this event. If it runs at a loss for several seasons but builds a reputation as the best on-line league that eventually turns to profit, then this would be good but it's up to you guys on that front obvisouly.
I now realise that I'm reaching the rambling stage again (sorry Clarkey) so I'll sign off with a genuine appreciation of the efforts of James to try and establish a league that is for the players, and purely for the players. Nothing bad can come as a result of getting this league to work long term. So if you, James, think there is anything that we as players can do to help then share the load mate.
We can do this...
Good luck at the tables.....
ShotFox
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The VIP Poker League
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The VIP Poker League
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Member
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Thread Tools |
|
|
| Display Modes |
 Linear Mode
|
|
|
| |
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
